angliskai: Just a brief update if anyone cares. There is hope, if anyone in the future has found these threads and was in the same boat as I. Seems there are a few options available to people with PAL's (not sure if this will work with GAL's, but I'm also going to try) that may be "protected" and need to copy them. I first found a service that used a Brute Force Analyzer to try to recover and create a JEDEC file from my PAL's. After they had some issues with the analyzer, due to the age of the machine, I then found a buddy who had a few good ideas on working with HAL's from the early Mac's. His idea was to expose the silicon "chip" so it could be examined by a microscope. Once exposed pictures could then be taken of the "fuse field" that is inside a HAL/PAL (see data sheet of PAL if you never seen the "fuse field") and it could then be possible to recreate a JEDEC file, manually of course. I'm a basic idiot (due to frequent parental droppings and lack of experience) and probably would have never occurred to me to try such a thing. He tried a few different ideas to expose the chip, but most were unsuccessful. His Website chronicles different ideas and stages of things he has tried. The address is http://www.stockly.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6 to see some failed attempts. The real good stuff is here: http://www.stockly.com/forums/showth...oto=nextnewest. Take a look around the whole site. He's really quite smart. Anyway. he found a service that will "decap" the IC, called MEFAS.com. They do failure analysis, so really we just use "part" of the services they offer. If you visit their Website you'll see that they offer a LIB service. Basically they can "jumper" the security fuse and then you will be able to "read" the JEDEC file from the PAL. Right now I have a HAL I sent to be decapped ($175 with return shipping, pics are more if you need them, about $350 total). There are issues with HAL's that I go in to in a moment that the LIB process won't work. The idea with the HAL is simple - I found a version of a HAL (from an Apple IIe) that was in PAL form. Luckily I was able to read the PAL with my programmer, convert the PAL code to GAL form and burn a working GAL. Sounds like quite an accomplishment? Naaa. If any unschooled idiot like me can do it, trust me - you could too. Anyway, converting the PAL to a GAL is just kids play - the real luck with this is that I found a PAL which I could read. Since I know the HAL is identically the same, programmed and logic (fuse field), then I can use the JEDEC as sort of a "Rosetta Stone" to read HAL. I could have purchased some old PAL's (and YES they are still for sale in some places!) and burned a few and had then decapped, but knowing the JEDEC file AND having a piece of equipment to test the PAL with is really quite a find! Now for some HAL info. These things are VERY rare. I'm not too sure if anyone outside of Apple even used them. Basically they are the same as a PAL, but they lack the "programming" circuitry that a PAL has. A PAL can be programmed "in the field" where as a HAL could only be programmed in the factory. HAL's were made by request only. They were a way to "mass produce" a PAL, which is just a custom piece of logic. The HAL was programmed, or burned, while in the manufacturing process. Since the manufacture had access to the bare chip they didn't need any of the programming circuitry and that helped keep the cost of the finished IC down since it was a "simpler" IC to produce. Since a HAL lacks any programming circuitry it also can't be read, so it acts as a copy protection like the security fuse does in a PAL. Oh sure, you can read a HAL if you want to try, but all you'll get is a "block" of un-blown fuses somewhere in a JEDEC file. Nothing useable that will let you recreate the IC. So since HAL's don't have a security fuse the LIB process offered by MEFAS.com won't help much. Hopefully I won't need to manually decode my PAL's. I'm hoping to just have MEFAS.com "jumper" the security fuse back and be able to read it. Feel free to contact me if I can be of any help in the future. I can be reached via email on any of these two sites: www.reactivecomputerservices.com and www.gse-reactive.com. My email is listed on both sites. -- Bye, Levas -- http://www.vabolis.lt "Levas" <kazkur@pasbobute.lt> wrote in message news:jt4o2i$5md$1@trimpas.omnitel.net... >o jei nenusiskaito? > > http://www.msc-ge.com/download/lattice/files/copypal.pdf > > > -- > Bye, Levas > -- > http://www.vabolis.lt > > > "klausiu" <alius_k@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:jt4mni$4kk$1@trimpas.omnitel.net... >>O jei nuskaityt nuo vieno ir irasyt i kita? >> Programatorius (TOP3100) lyg raso, kad turetu suprast toki. >> >>> Ar zinai fjusus? Pats susiprogramuosi? >> PALCEs galima keisti GAL irenginiais ir panasiai. Tik be pradinio source >> kodo, tai nelabai... >>